Hello :)

[jtindall]

I'm Jess. I'm 21 and currently a Senior Philosophy major at St. Joseph's University. Other people describe me as an intellectual, passionate, and determined.

I care a lot about efficiency, I can't stand wasting time, money, or resources.

I'm bothered by the amount and extent of suffering there is in the world, and aim to make the world a better place. Currently I only know a few people who share this concern, so based on the recommendation of yboris, I've joined the community!

I'm interested in participating in a non-directed kidney donation, and also plan to participate in effective giving. I'm considering attending law school so that I will have the financial resources to give as much as I can... but my plan for the future is at this point uncertain.

[RyanCarey]

Hey Jess, welcome to the site!

Caring about efficiency is very much what this site is about. Or at least cost-effectiveness: not only using as little as possible, but getting as much as possible done with it.

I'm interested in participating in a non-directed kidney donation too. I think if I do a little research and take some relevant information and contact numbers to my GP he should be able to make it happen!

Making money to donate to charity is a great idea. That's the general path I'm looking at for myself. But a great deal hinges on where we're looking to donate our money. Do you concern yourself with just human suffering, or animal suffering as well by the way?

[Jesper Östman]

Hello!

Sounds awesome! I think it's a sign of a very admirable personality to be prepared to donate a kidney, like I think it's very admirable to become a professional donor.

However, there are also some possible tensions between the respective actions. In particular, unfortunately, such organ donation might in the worst case result in bad PR which can lessen the much higher impact of one's financial donations (especially if one is a public figure). At least, I've heard this being argued recently, regarding Zell kravinsky:

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/what_ ... snt_crazy/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zell_Kravinsky

On the other hand perhaps it isn't completely clear that the PR-effect is negative, if it instead is positive it could amplify the impact of one's other donations.

[Gedusa]

Welcome!

Your ideas for giving money/ a kidney (!) are fantastic. It's always great to hear that there's a new person who wants to massively reduce suffering out there!

I would have one concern about the kidney donation, which would be risks of surgery/ long-term risks to health. I remember a statistic somewhere saying that kidney donation reduces life expectancy by a few years, and you should consider the risks of surgery. I haven't run the numbers, but perhaps giving a kidney might not end up well. That is, if you otherwise would've given large amounts of money to effective charities, then a small risk at the beginning of your life would put all that at risk. As I say, I haven't actually done the analysis, but you might consider the possibility.

I second the request for what areas you're interested in, seeing as we've got people focusing on all different kinds of suffering here, I'm sure you'll fit in somewhere! For example, I'm probably going to try and prevent human extinction, in the hope that future civilizations would be mainly happy, and because I think extinction is quite likely.

Oh, and I'd recommend the wiki, still under construction, but a good resource nonetheless.

[Arepo]

Welcome aboard Would you consider yourself a utilitarian per se, or just sympathetic to its aims?

Re kidney donation, why non-directed? It seems like you'd do best to at least avoid giving it to people who seem likely to relapse into habits that cost them their first one and/or are particularly harmful to society.

[jtindall]

@ Gedusa:

To my knowledge the risks with the surgery are not great-- granted obviously going under the knife is a risk in itself. I've also seen a mention somewhere about a shorter life expectancy-- although I don't recall where.

Thanks for the information regarding how taking a risk in participating in the donation could potentially prevent me from a lifetime of donating to effective charities. I definitely wouldn't want to take risks that would prevent me from doing that-- donating to effective charities would save many more lives than a one-time organ donation.

I'm interested in human as well as animal suffering. I definitely don't know as much as everyone here, but I want to learn as much as I can. Any recommendations anyone has for reading would be much appreciated! I just started Singer's Writings on an Ethical Life.

@ Arepo:

Well, when I formally learned about utilitarianism in a Moral Philosophy course, I realized that I definitely had utilitarian tendencies before ever really knowing what it involved.

I'd like it to be a non-directed donation because I'm definitely not equipped with the knowledge to figure out how my particular donation can be best used (finding a match, lack of information on patient background-- I'm really impartial to who receives the organ). I just feel like I have the opportunity to help someone who is definitely suffering-- and I don't think I should be the one to determine who gets my kidney. There is a need for kidneys, and I would love to help someone by being an anonymous donor.

[utilitymonster]

Welcome. Glad to see you have passion for good things. Going pro donor is a great idea.

I think the kidney thing is a bad idea. Reasons for this:

- According to Kravinsky, the risk of death under surgery is about 1 in 4000. If you could save more than 4000 lives, which is pretty feasible depending on how well you play your cards, direct factors tell against getting the surgery. So you really want to be looking at indirect factors when making this kind of choice. In general, if you are serious about promoting utilitarian causes, you should take risks to your own health extremely seriously.
- As some have pointed out, giving the kidney didn't do favors for Kravinsky's reputation. So that is something to think about.
- Giving a kidney is a highly symbolic act, and it might make you think of yourself as the kind of person who makes sacrifices for others. That would be a good thing, because it would reinforce do-gooding behavior.

[utilitymonster]

Oops. The last one doesn't support the claim that the kidney is bad idea. I just wanted to point out another relevant consideration.

[Pat]

Welcome, Jess! Thanks for bringing up the topic of kidney donation. A couple of years ago, I was set on donating a kidney. Then I had some doubts, and I haven't thought about it for a while. One of the reasons I decided against it was that the person's whose life I might extend would probably eat more factory-farmed chickens and eggs, and thus cause suffering that would outweigh the benefits to the recipient. I know longer think that that calculation is so straightforward, and I'm reconsidering again. Here a few further thoughts.

According to Kravinsky, the risk of death under surgery is about 1 in 4000. If you could save more than 4000 lives, which is pretty feasible depending on how well you play your cards, direct factors tell against getting the surgery.

The calculation is even more likely to come out against donating organ donation if you consider the chance that the organ will be rejected, that the person receiving the organ will likely be in suboptimal health, and that the recipient will likely be an adult rather than a child (most of the people saved by developing-world charities are young). So if you use quality-adjusted life years rather than lives saved as your metric, you'd likely do better sticking with working and donating money.

Another factor to consider is that you won't be able to work for two to three weeks. (That website, by the way, says that kidney donation has not been demonstrated to reduce life expectancy.) You could probably earn enough money in two weeks to save someone's life, and you wouldn't be risking yours.

As I see it, the primary benefit, which utilitymonster mentioned, is that kidney donation might make you a more altruistic person. Our behavior often influences our beliefs. (But if you consciously decide to donate a kidney to make yourself more altruistic, will you see through it and miss out on that benefit?)

Re kidney donation, why non-directed? It seems like you'd do best to at least avoid giving it to people who seem likely to relapse into habits that cost them their first one and/or are particularly harmful to society.

To some extent, I agree with Arepo: If I had a choice between donating a kidney to Peter Singer or the CEO of Perdue, I'd choose Singer. But as Jess mentioned, the information to make useful distinctions isn't easily available. There is a (controversial) website called Matching Donors on which people in need of organs pay a fee to post ads. On the other hand, if I picked a donor, I'd feel responsible for anything that went wrong. A couple of years ago, The New Yorker published an article (subscription required) about people's varying experiences with kidney donations. I'd recommend reading it if you're seriously considering this.

The calculus changes dramatically when you consider donating kidneys to do-gooders (e.g., animal-welfare activists or people who donate a lot of their money to effective charities). If you do this, Kravinsky's 4000–1 calculation is valid. If you know any do-gooders who need a kidney, spread the word; there's no reason they should have any trouble getting one.

From a personal, non-utilitarian standpoint, I think that donating a kidney is a beautiful and courageous act. I'm surprised that other people feel otherwise. The New Yorker published some nasty letters from readers after it published the piece on Kravinsky. I certainly believe that Kravinsky could played his cards better, but why were people so ungrateful? Apparently, some people feel threatened by acts of extreme generosity.

Regardless of what you choose, you're a good person (or at least much better than the average ). It's nice to have you here.

[Ruairi]

i dont have time toread all this now but *waves* !

[RyanCarey]

I don't buy this notion that kidney donation is actually negative for one's image.

The part that's interesting to me is the idea that kidney donation would actually be inefficient use of one's time. Using a naive utilitarianism, random kidney donation could lose to philanthropy in a cost-effectiveness calculation. If so, the burden is on the supporter of kidney donation to explain that it also has symbolic value. That is, it could prove to motivate you and others to do more to be the best that you can. I'm not sure what the extent of the symbolic value is.

[LadyMorgana]

Another female! Yaaay

Definitely check out this thread if you haven't already (especially from my first comment onwards!) I also know someone who quit his Philosophy PhD to go into law school so that he could donate more (Mark Lee from Giving What We Can).

[RyanCarey]

It seems likely to me that donating one's kidney would indeed have great symbolic value. It could be inspirational. The issue is this: will taking a significant sacrifice - donating a kidney - inspire people to make small sacrifices - donating money. I think the answer is yes. Compare people who run a marathon for charity or undergo the forty hour famine. There will be some resentment. Some will think you're crazy. But most people will respond well. So at least getting counselled on the possibility of random organ donation is a utilitarian act, right?

[Brian Tomasik]

One of the reasons I decided against it was that the person's whose life I might extend would probably eat more factory-farmed chickens and eggs, and thus cause suffering that would outweigh the benefits to the recipient.

Excellent point, Pat! My only counter-consideration is that extending a person's life may also reduce wild-animal habitats slightly. It's not clear what the balance is.

Another factor to consider is that you won't be able to work for two to three weeks. [...] You could probably earn enough money in two weeks to save someone's life, and you wouldn't be risking yours.

Yes, that's probably true, considering that you can save a life for less than $1000. (Needless to say, I much prefer donating to Vegan Outreach to prevent suffering.)

[Pablo Stafforini]

Instead of donating the kidney, one could sell it and donate the proceedings to a cost-effective charity. I consider this idea here.

[CosmicPariah]

Hello

There is a thread on Lesswrong discussing this which could be useful. http://lesswrong.com/lw/d4v/altruistic_kidney_donation/

I haven't done much research into it, but it seems like given the opportunity costs of the donation (getting the surgery and healing from it) it might not be worth it. I could be wrong, though.

[Arepo]

I don't think Jess is reading this forum at the moment. If you guys want to suggest these ideas to her, it might be worth getting in touch with her on Facebook (her details are in the Facebook thread, IIRC).

[Nap]

Hello

[yboris]

Hey Jess,

Great to see you here. I first saw your post a few months back but never responded; so rude of me, sorry

Hope all is well

[yboris]

Hey Jess,

Update us with what's going on in your life. Have you maintained your interest in a kidney donation? Have you been influenced in any way by Alexander Berger from GiveWell who gave his kidney? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/opini ... .html?_r=0

Cheers